Know Who You Are, Then Back Yourself

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:09] Speaker B: Hey, guys, welcome back to another episode of Her Heads in the Cloud. This is a pretty special one because we've got Jill, our founder, joining us with her own podcast, we at the Table. And we've got a pretty special guest, Angela, who has extensive experience within the tech domain. But, Angela, I'll pass it over to you to introduce yourself properly. [00:00:35] Speaker C: Morning all. And firstly, thank you both Jill and Aglay, for this opportunity to actually come and be part of the podcast. Have, you know, listened to some of them and have been really excited about actually having this opportunity. So thank you. A little bit of an introduction about myself, Angela Anthony. I have been in the tech field now for more than 30 years, you know, so it is one that has been quite extensive. My background has actually been, if you look at my LinkedIn profile or anything of that nature, you'll find that I've worked in many different industries in many different geographical locations. So started life out and consulting, went into financial services, did aviation, then moved across to retail, moved into health services, and then more recently in branded manufacturing and, you know, so it's a career that has taken me to many different parts of the world, worked with many different types of people. But what I will say is consistently through that passion, in terms of passion of mine, it is actually looking at what you can do for the business from a technology space and how that makes a difference to us as a community, as a people, as an organization, and through that also growing communities and teams of people who become the future leaders and in particular with a slant towards women in leadership. [00:02:19] Speaker B: That is certainly quite a special and extensive story, Angela. And how would you say your career has panned out versus what you might have originally planned for yourself? [00:02:33] Speaker C: So I would say that I would be a little bit of a poster child for those of you who are out there listening to this podcast, kind of thinking, oh, you know, you have to have an absolute idea of where you're going to go and this is how it's all going to pan out. I'd be the poster child of the fact that it didn't quite go the way I thought it would go. I did. My first degree was in chemistry and mathematics. I then thought, oh, I don't want to be in a lab the whole time as an industrial chemist. So I went and did a teaching qualification and ended up actually teaching VCE here in Melbourne and mathematics and science at a school, at a secondary school here in Melbourne. But within two years I came to the conclusion that I loved what I was doing, I loved teaching. However, I felt I could do more, I could actually do more, I could achieve more. So I went back to university and did a post grad in computer science and that's when my technology career actually took off. [00:03:41] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:03:42] Speaker C: Right. So, you know, when you ask the question in terms of way, you know, how did your career pan out? Well, I'm not a teacher, I'm in technology. And once I got into technology, I didn't look, look back, you know, and even in that technology career, I started out as a developer. And one of the things I will say to anyone working with me or that I'm mentoring or coaching is to think and know who you are and what makes you tick. And I came to that recognition fairly early in my career because whilst I was a developer, I recognized that that wasn't what kind of floated you. Yeah. [00:04:22] Speaker A: It wasn't you. [00:04:23] Speaker C: Yeah. Right. And then I made decisions from there in terms of where what I needed to do and where I needed to go and, and what my strengths were and how to actually draw on my strengths in order to actually get my career going. [00:04:35] Speaker B: So. [00:04:36] Speaker C: So, you know, did the developer work, didn't necessarily enjoy it, and moved on. [00:04:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:04:43] Speaker A: The groundwork. [00:04:44] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [00:04:46] Speaker A: Is there a move that was kind of a risky move for you career wise? Did you have to take any kind of leaps of faith? [00:04:57] Speaker C: I'll say. Actually, you know, one of the risky moves I think that I made through the course of my career and it was kind of in the middle of my career. Career. Right. I was actually growing my career very well here in Melbourne. [00:05:15] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:05:16] Speaker C: I had been asked through different opportunities and people tapping my shoulder to go work in Sydney, but I didn't want to necessarily work in Sydney, I wanted to stay in Melbourne. But then a little while later I got tapped to go take up a role in Hong Kong as the divisional CIO for Cathay Pacific. [00:05:35] Speaker A: Amazing. [00:05:37] Speaker C: Now, by that stage in my career, I had three young children, I had a husband who enjoyed his career. So the risky move was actually more about holistically for us as a family. Was that going to be the right move for us? [00:05:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:05:54] Speaker C: Right. Would that be the right thing for us as a family? How would the children cope with it? What does it mean for my husband's career and also for me, I guess from a career perspective as well? Well, it was working. Whilst I've worked in many different parts of the world, living in that country and doing what you need to do and being part of the fabric of that organization is actually quite a different deal to being a consultant and living in a place and implementing something. Right. So we took the risk. And I'll tell you a really quick story in making that decision. Jill. Yeah. My husband and I looked at each other and we said, you know, and we'd done our pros and cons and we'd done our list and we thought about it all very, very analytically and, you know, does it make sense, etc. Etc. But we couldn't make a decision. So in the end, my husband and I looked at each other and said, we're going to flip a coin. No way. We flipped a coin. Wow. And it said, go to Hong Kong. And so we did. [00:06:59] Speaker A: Amazing. Oh, wow. That is. I mean, I suppose you've gone through that process. You've tried to do the pros and the drawbacks, and you couldn't make a decision, so you decided to leave it to champs. [00:07:15] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:07:16] Speaker A: And did it pan out well for you? [00:07:18] Speaker C: It did pan out well. That's not to say that there weren't difficult times kind of working in Hong Kong as well, both at a career level, settling the family in, you know, doing all those sorts of things at the career level. It was actually working in a culture that was in Cathay Pacific was the organization I was working at, and I was the divisional CIO for the passenger business, and passenger was kind of 70% of the business that they did and the Cathay Pacific business at that time, you know, very obviously most of my team were Hong Kong Chinese, but the leadership team at the director level and below were very much mixed with a lot of English from the Swire group. So not only were you working with the cultural differences of working in Hong Kong and Hong Kong Chinese, and how do you make sure that you are, you know, communicating the way that you need to communicate so that, you know, everyone understood what needed to get done, but you also had another level of complexity to how the English actually worked. Right. So you. And a lot, you know, from an expat perspective, trying to navigate your way through those scenarios was interesting. There was a steering committee that I had for a digital transformation that I was leading and. And the MD for the passenger side of the business looked at what we were proposing and the recommendation being made, and his statement to me was, oh, Angela, I don't know. This is very much a Sophie's Choice. So everyone's trying to sit there going, what does he mean? What does he mean by Sophie's Choice? But he had been a history and English major, right. From England. And so, you know, it. It was really complex Trying to make sure that you were jumping in and out of different ways of communicating so that you could actually kind of resonate with the group that you were speaking to. [00:09:34] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. A lot of cultural differences, I guess, as well, to kind of manage. Yeah. [00:09:42] Speaker B: And looking back, Angela, what would you say has been your biggest failure throughout your career and, of course, your biggest highlight also? [00:09:53] Speaker C: Yeah, the biggest challenge or failure was actually early on in my career when I was the deployment center director for Accenture, so working in consulting, there was a large piece of work that we were doing that I was leading that was actually about the implementation of a payroll and HR system. The stakeholder that we had, that I had, that I was working very closely with, was, you know, kind of all over the place. She'd say she wanted something done in a particular way, or these were the requirements. And then a few days later, or when you enter steering committee, you actually got a very different view of what she wanted or how she thought it needed to go or what it meant. Right. So it kind of yo yoed through that quite a bit. And we try and get, you know, I try and help the steering committee better understand what it is that we were trying to do, etc. But it got to a point where it couldn't continue that way. And in one of the steering committees, in that last steering committee that we went to, actually, it was the second last, we made the decision that we were going to halt it. We were going to stop that implementation. [00:11:13] Speaker A: Right. [00:11:14] Speaker C: That was a huge blow because there was already quite a substantial amount of money that had been spent. You know, I had a team that was hugely invested in making it happen, that now I had to communicate that, you know, tools down. Right. And I was working with a stakeholder that was very kind of them and us. So it's your mistake where really the requirements hadn't been spelled out. [00:11:48] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay. [00:11:49] Speaker C: You know, so that. That I would say. And I learned so much from it, I feel like. And I say this to a lot of people that I work with. You need some of those scars, right? [00:12:02] Speaker A: Yeah. 100%. Only through failure can we get some really, like, lived lessons, I guess. [00:12:09] Speaker C: Yes. [00:12:09] Speaker A: If everything goes well, then how'd you ever learn? [00:12:13] Speaker C: Yes, yes. You know, and so some of the key learnings for me, through that particular incidental, you know, scenario was the fact that [00:12:26] Speaker A: I. [00:12:27] Speaker C: In my gut, I think I knew that it wasn't quite going the way I wanted it to go, that we thought that we needed it to go. I think I should have raised the flag A little earlier, I think I should have had more robust discussions with my stakeholder. But at that time I was still trying to feel my way through of how to do this so that we kind of keep everyone happy and can, you know. But here's the thing. You can't keep everyone happy. [00:12:52] Speaker A: No. [00:12:52] Speaker C: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So those were certainly learnings. [00:12:59] Speaker B: How long did the back and forth go before you decided to pull the [00:13:02] Speaker C: trigger on was about six months. Six months of steering committees and, you know, let's do this. Oh. And what continually happened is we'd get additional requirements. Oh, no, this is critical. We need to do this in this way. But then you'd have the conversation, as you would all know, if you add more requirements, that means it's going to take longer. Yeah. And. And it's going to cost more. [00:13:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:13:28] Speaker C: But of course, everyone wants everything without needing it to take longer or cost more. Yeah. You then kind of look at, you know, which part of this do we actually negotiate on. [00:13:41] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:13:41] Speaker C: That took a long time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:13:46] Speaker A: Hindsight's a wonderful thing. [00:13:47] Speaker C: It is, it is. And we've all got PhDs in those, 100%. [00:13:56] Speaker A: How have your priorities shifted over the course of your career, Angela, in terms of kind of your career priorities, your family, personal life, how's that evolved over your long career? [00:14:10] Speaker C: I would describe myself as being that in my. When I was first starting out my career, I think I was that classic younger person who lives and breathes, you know, work was my thing because I loved what I was doing. I got a whole lot of joy out of. Excited me. I was working, you know, I had the amazing opportunity to work with such smart, you know, great, interesting people. So it kind of fed me in a lot of ways. But I was willing to compromise on everything else, be it personal life, be it, you know, anything else. Right. So I lived and breathed work and, you know, I do crazy things. Like I was running a program that was also implementing. We were leading the implementation in South America. So I'd work a full day here till 7pm normally. Right? [00:15:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:15:08] Speaker C: Go home, get shot, get changed. And in those days, you didn't have the ability to do this, where you just kind of dialed in from home. I went back into the office. You know, I'd be there at 9pm and then continue to try and work some of the South American time zone. Right. [00:15:24] Speaker A: Yeah. Wow. [00:15:27] Speaker C: And I did. It's not sustainable. And I know this, but at that time, I wasn't married, I didn't have children, I didn't have children actually kind of do the balancing. Right? [00:15:36] Speaker A: Yeah. Different times. [00:15:38] Speaker C: That's right. But stage of life being what it is when we had children, whether you like it or not, your focus changes. Right. And I found that it was actually a great leveler, I would say, as a human, as a mother, as someone who wants to do the right thing by the organization and deliver for myself in terms of, you know, because I am very outcome driven. So it meant that I needed to kind of balance myself as well. [00:16:11] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:16:12] Speaker C: But having children meant that I, I drew the line at, okay, I need to go home because I've got two little people and I had twins. Yeah. So I have to go do this. Right. But as I have grown through my career, I've actually come to even value more so. And my children are now young adults going about and doing their thing. Which is wonderful. [00:16:40] Speaker A: Yes. [00:16:41] Speaker C: But for me, it has meant also that I have, excuse me, started to prioritize my physical health, mental health, and how I then face into the world. And I think, you know, when I look back now, I kind of think you, you get a far better Angela Anthony than the Angela Anthony that was totally invested at work. The Angela Anthony that was trying to balance work and life, but at the expense of, I think, physical health. Because I wouldn't go do my exercises or go for a walk and things because I just didn't get the opportunity [00:17:23] Speaker A: or family focused on. [00:17:25] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, I say to a lot of people that I work with, don't deprioritize those things. [00:17:36] Speaker A: You know, I think if you do like what you said, I think it does. It is at the risk of, even though it's kind of counterintuitive, it is actually at the risk of your career because I'm sure that you, as a result of shifting those priorities, putting your family first, putting yourself first, as perhaps you get a little bit older as well, getting a bit more perspective on what you become, a better leader because everyone around you is watching what you do. And it all comes from the top, doesn't it? And your behaviors trickle down onto your team on what is a healthy kind of work versus home personal life balance. [00:18:17] Speaker C: Yeah. And lived experience is a great way of teaching that. Right. Because lived experience basically tells you when you have a member of your staff come to you and say, oh, my kid's not well, [00:18:31] Speaker A: much more empathy. [00:18:32] Speaker C: Yeah, that's right. That's right. You go, go, go. Just go do what you need to do. Right. [00:18:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:18:39] Speaker C: But me, in my younger years, I would have gone no, no, we've got to forge on. We've got a deadline to meet. [00:18:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:18:44] Speaker A: And I do think only by actually experiencing that yourself can you, yeah. Probably have a true understanding of it. That, that's certainly my experience. I, I, I would be the same. I'd be like, oh, you need to just crack on anyway, what, what's the problem? Whereas if you've actually been through that yourself, like anything, it, it's easier to empathize, isn't it? That's right. [00:19:06] Speaker C: Exactly. [00:19:07] Speaker B: And Angela, how do you, I think, feel like it's never been more important in the world now, where people do need to prioritize their mental health and keep it in check. So what are you doing in this current day and age to look after it? Especially when you look at technical people? So many people working remotely for full time, they don't get to experience the outdoor world. So what do you do to protect that? [00:19:35] Speaker C: I do a few things. Like, one of the things is I love my Pilates. So come, hello, high water. I will do Pilates three times a week because I find nice that I feel like a better person for it. And it's one of those things where you kind of go and you're so busy, and if you're anything like me, actually, you probably aren't. But I am quite uncoordinated. So when I'm trying to do blood, I spend all my time just focusing on the instructions being given so that she doesn't have to say three times. No, no, your left leg. So I'm so focused on it that the time passes so quickly and you do what you need to do and then you can add anything. Ah, I feel better for having done it. Right. [00:20:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:20:28] Speaker C: So that's certainly one thing. The other thing I do is actually take go for walks and I walk my dog, and I'll do that four or five times a week. And it gets you out in the open air. And I think the open air is the best way to actually kind of clear your mind. And when I do those walks, I'm either listening to a podcast of some description or I'm thinking through various things that, you know, I kind of think, oh, no, I think what we could do is X, Y and Z. So it gives me thinking time as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:21:01] Speaker B: I feel like being outdoors is the best for your headspace away from screen time. [00:21:07] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:21:08] Speaker B: And Angela, I know. So I don't know if this would be the toughest moment. I feel like you mentioned flipping the coin. Yeah. I mean, living life on the edge there. Would you say that was the toughest moment in your career? Or if not, what would you say was? [00:21:25] Speaker C: Well, I think that was really one of the toughest moments in my career. And for a multitude of reasons, as I said, I also at the time had aging parents back here in Melbourne. Right. And so trying to make that call around, you know, how do I balance the kids and my husband, my parents who are aging? My whole support network was here in Melbourne. [00:21:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:54] Speaker C: So in going to Hong Kong, it meant we were going to go in and take it as it came. Right. So that was a really tough decision. It was a tough decision even when I had the conversation with my parents and, you know, telling them that, you know, it's only nine hours away, but nonetheless, it's nine hours away. [00:22:20] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. They were in Melbourne, were they, at the time? [00:22:25] Speaker C: Yeah, they were in Melbourne, yeah. [00:22:26] Speaker A: Okay, so you had them close by. Yeah, yeah. [00:22:29] Speaker C: So that was one of the toughest decisions. And, you know, when I made. When my husband and I made that call, it actually was on the back of about six. About nine months earlier, I had been tapped for that same role. [00:22:45] Speaker A: Okay. [00:22:46] Speaker C: And at that time, I had actually said, no, I don't think we're ready. Right. So when nine months later, I got re tapped, the conversation I had with the group CIO who called me was to say, actually, no, we've had this discussion. No, I don't think I will. And then we kept talking. And then I said, oh, look, you know, talk role. Tell me what the role is. Right. And obviously took dollars as well. And he did. So I came home and I said to my husband, I said, oh, I had this conversation again. And he said, oh, no, no. Well, we've decided, haven't we? And. And then I said, well, he said this and this. And my husband said, bastard, we have to think about it. [00:23:40] Speaker A: Gotta go back round and review it. Did. Did fear of if I don't take it now they've asked me again, it's not gonna kind of bode well for my career if I turn it down again, because I have heard from quite a few people who I've chatted to that that was maybe a factor in why they ended up taking a role which they might have said no to. [00:24:07] Speaker C: At first, it was a little of that, but I also am. I kind of work on this philosophy of you put your best foot forward, you do everything, and make sure that you are representing yourself through career and opportunities and all of that as best as you can. And then there's A big part of it is, and I fully subscribe to this, is the universe will do what the universe needs to do, and you need to pay attention to what the universe is saying. [00:24:43] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:24:44] Speaker C: So when that second tap came, I thought, well, the universe is saying something, saying something. [00:24:51] Speaker A: Give it a go, pay attention. [00:24:54] Speaker B: I always say that the universe always has your back and like, what's meant to be, it will come and find you. So I guess, yeah, you getting tapped up for the second time round, it came back to you. [00:25:05] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, you know, I think I find even at work and dealing through decisions and everything, I work kind of in that balance of being very data driven, give me the information, what does that need to look like, etc. And then you have a sense of what you think it needs to be. Right. And that sense, through my experience over the years, I will describe it as basically coming from experience because you've seen or smelt it in as a slightly different being maybe, but that's kind of what it feels and looks like. The other is, you know, it's. It's kind of that universe thing. Right. You kind of go, I kind of know. So this is what we need to do. [00:25:58] Speaker A: I've got the data. [00:25:59] Speaker C: The data kind of provides enough information, but don't go down to the nth level of detail of needing data. Yeah, yeah. [00:26:08] Speaker A: No combination's good. [00:26:10] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, definitely. [00:26:13] Speaker B: And what would you say throughout your career, Angela? What's been the toughest piece of feedback that you've ever received? [00:26:23] Speaker C: I think the toughest piece of feedback has come in the form of, you know, through all of my career of 30 something years, there's only been one time where I've had a female leader as, oh, wow. The rest of the time, it's always been men always mentioned. And one of the toughest pieces of feedback, I think, was this particular individual where at the time I had said, actually, I think I want to go to four days a week, because at the time my twins were quite young. And I thought, you know, in order to balance it, if I can do four days, and I'd come out of the world of consulting where I was a director with deployment centers and all of that, to making a very conscious decision to kind of take a step down in order not to be traveling all the time and at the behest of people saying, you need to be here or you need to be there, kind of, you know, channel my time and manage my time a little better for my own self. Right. And when I did that, you know, For a period of time, I think I'd been in that role for about 12 months. I kind of came to the conclusion if I'm going to do all of that, I actually want to do it right where I can work at four days a week and have one additional day with my family. [00:27:54] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:27:56] Speaker C: My boss said no. Right. And I kind of went, oh. And the reasoning wasn't. And it was, you know, a little earlier. Whereas these days, you know, you would definitely kind of entertain it and think about how best do you make it work. It was a little harder then. Right. And so I had to then think about, okay, what do I want for my career? If this is the feedback that from their perspective, from his perspective, I couldn't do the role. Whereas I was saying I could do the role. I thought, okay, that's fine, I'll do the role. As you are saying I'll do the role. But you know what, I'm going back to a full blown next step up role. [00:28:44] Speaker A: Well, yeah. [00:28:45] Speaker C: And then I was fortunate in that I got tapped to move to Anz bank and. And then, you know, didn't look back, I thought, if I'm going to do five days, I'm going to do it with gusto. [00:28:57] Speaker A: Well, yeah, there's no point if you're doing five days, but taking a lower role, it would make sense. If you've got to do the five days, you may as well take an appropriate leveled role. Correct. [00:29:08] Speaker C: Right. [00:29:10] Speaker B: But. [00:29:10] Speaker C: But it was a tough bit of feedback to get that, you know, you. Even though that was. I didn't feel like there was data that actually said that I couldn't do it. Yeah, but it was an inherent kind of, nah, you got to do. [00:29:28] Speaker B: It's interesting because I feel like since then the times have changed quite drastically. So I wonder if you were to put that proposal forward today, what they would say if it would be feasible. [00:29:40] Speaker C: Yeah, I, I actually would like to think that a lot more people now would entertain it. A lot more people, be they women or men. [00:29:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:29:52] Speaker C: Would actually look at how do you make it work as opposed to, I have a definitive view and I will not be signed. [00:30:01] Speaker A: Yeah. Be more flexible around it. [00:30:02] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [00:30:03] Speaker A: What, what do you see? I mean, that's a great example, but are there any other examples that you've come across in your career where maybe women have it? Yeah, more women, I suppose, where particularly women, though, and particularly women in leadership have it a bit harder. Have you seen any other examples of that? [00:30:25] Speaker C: You know, Jill, I've had a lot of time to Kind of reflect on this through the course of my career. As I think when we caught up in Sydney, we had this chat about the fact that, you know, you work in an area like mine. I'm a senior woman CIO in a STEM area. STEM is hugely underrepresented with women. Right. So the whole of my career, as I said, other than that one, and that was only for about 18 months, I think. Right. The rest of my career was all men. I had men leaders that I worked with. And so I think that it's really tough. It's really tough to be someone who knows and to hold true to yourself, to be authentic to what you say and how you think it needs to be done when there are so many loud, strong voices around you that want it done in a way that they're comfortable with. And I will say that I have had kind of a mix level of success in either shifting that thinking, and in some cases I have been able to shift that thinking. Right. And in other instances it's, nah, this is how we're going to do it because, you know, this is how we've always done it. Yeah, right. And so I think one of the things I will say to women as you kind of navigate your way through leadership in areas where it's heavily, you know, represented by men, is firstly, I think you need to understand who you are, that self awareness is really, really important because the self awareness tells you what you can lean towards in terms of your strengths to actually then make your case, do what you need to do. If you don't have that self awareness, you kind of flip flop, right? Yeah. So I spent a lot of time through the course of my career where I was fortunate in that I had a lot of different opportunities to kind of build that self awareness, be it through, you know, psychometric testing or, you know, team type events that happen, etc. Etc. So I had that. Right. But I think you need to have that self awareness and then you need to back yourself. Right. You need to actually, you know, I'll give you another example of someone that I worked with, you know, who was wanting to start a family, did get pregnant, but it was also wanting at that time, had been applying for a more senior role. When she got pregnant, she came to me and she said, oh, no, I don't think I will go for that role because it's going to make the manager of that role, it's going to make his life really hard because I'm then going to go on parental leave. So I don't Think I'll apply for it. I'll go have my baby do what I need to do and then when I come back I'll re evaluate what I want to do. Right. And I had the conversation with her and I said, hey, firstly, congratulations, well done. How exciting. [00:33:55] Speaker A: Right. [00:33:56] Speaker C: Secondly, I don't know why that has an interdependence to the decision you need to make as to whether or not you apply for the role. And thirdly, why are you doing your boss's job? He gets paid more than you. [00:34:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:34:11] Speaker C: Let him go and earn his keep. Let him work out how he's going to balance it and do it and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, without you preempting it. Yeah, yeah. Right. So I think, you know, hence why I say you've got to back yourself. [00:34:28] Speaker A: Yeah. I think that's so good that you had that conversation because I think most women in that situation probably would have thought the same. [00:34:39] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:34:40] Speaker A: Better not apply, you know, because it's going to be a bit of an inconvenience. [00:34:44] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:34:45] Speaker A: And hopefully her manager appreciated the opportunity to be able to promote her and have that option. [00:34:53] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think we, you know, to all the leaders out there, be you men or women, and most of, I think women, because you've got lived experience of this, be active advocates for women who are actually facing into these sorts of challenges. Don't just kind of go with the data. [00:35:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:35:19] Speaker C: Because the data doesn't tell the full story. Right. [00:35:23] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:35:24] Speaker C: And I think a lot of what I see for myself as I have worked through the seniority of leadership, etc. Is actually playing that advocacy role, posing the question to men in my team who are hiring a role and going, why wouldn't that work? Help me understand that. Why you made. Totally have a really valid reason and I'm looking to understand it. [00:35:51] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And I guess looking at reasons why it could work, what are the opportunities, what are the potential missed opportunities if we don't explore it as well? [00:36:01] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [00:36:03] Speaker B: And if someone does want to get into that senior kind of leadership positions, what do you think they need to get spot on from early on? [00:36:13] Speaker C: So one of the things I talk about a lot with teams that I work with is particularly technology teams. Right. Technology teams have our own identity to who we are. You will find, and I'm being very generalized here, you'll find that a lot of technologists tend to be very data driven, very analytical. Technically this is correct. So this is how we need to do it. Right. And the conversations I have with a lot of my team is to say just being technically correct is not enough. If you can't tell the story, you have to be a storyteller. [00:37:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:37:00] Speaker C: If you can't tell the story, just carrying on about the data is not going to convince that key stakeholder that you've got in front of you that this is the way to do it. [00:37:13] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:37:14] Speaker C: Right. And therefore then this is the EQ part of it as well. You've got to understand what makes that individual tick. Why are they so entrenched in. It has to be this way. They may have KPIs, they may have a fear of if I don't do it this way, then I won't be seen to be as successful as I am, you know, and you've got to navigate all of that. [00:37:38] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:37:39] Speaker C: So leadership is not just about giving all the technically correct answers. It's, you know, something else that I say to my teams is that the more senior you get, it's not about your what, it's about your how. [00:37:55] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:37:57] Speaker C: The how becomes more and more and more important. So if you can't get the how right, you will hit a ceiling. [00:38:05] Speaker B: Right. [00:38:06] Speaker C: And you'll be seen as a dependable, safe pair of hands, but you won't get that next leader role. [00:38:12] Speaker A: Yeah. It's limited, isn't it? Correct. You'll be limited by the buy in that you can get. If you're not able to kind of walk in that other person's shoes. Bring them on the journey. [00:38:23] Speaker C: Correct. [00:38:24] Speaker A: Deliver what they're actually looking for. I suppose. [00:38:26] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:38:30] Speaker A: Cool. [00:38:30] Speaker B: Well, what would you say goes into your non negotiable leader leadership qualities? I'd probably put empathy up there as a quite up in the top three. [00:38:43] Speaker C: Yeah. Like a lot of us, I work from a value base as my first part of what I want to do. Right. And my values come very heavily from equity and justice and, you know, wanting to do the right thing by our people. Right. And so my non negotiable is that you have to know and you have to be that advocate for the people who find it harder to actually advocate for themselves. What I mean by that is men and women, there'll be individuals, and particularly in technology, who are very good at what they do. You as a leader need to work, to work out what does career progression mean for that person and help them navigate that. Right? [00:39:41] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:39:42] Speaker C: And so, you know, I see a huge difference between being a manager and a leader. So my non negotiable is don't just be the manager. The manager is administrative. [00:39:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:39:58] Speaker C: You know, are you coming to work on time? Have you delivered this piece of work, etc. Etc. The leader is, how do you bring. Untap that potential, you know, tap that potential rather, and allow it to flourish? And all of a sudden. And I've seen this, you know, I've been very privileged and I've seen this in people that I've worked with where all of a sudden they flourish. Yeah, yeah, right. You know, and I've got people from the different organizations I've worked in who still catch up for a coffee with me to have a chat about something that they're encountering. And I love that. Yeah, right. I think, amazing. And, you know, they want to. And chief whatevers, you know, and it's fabulous watching it. [00:40:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:40:53] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:40:54] Speaker A: We always talk here actually about. Because obviously no one's perfect other. But it's like, how do we play to their strengths? Let's focus less on what they're doing wrong and how can we focus on what they're really good at and kind of just ignore that? It's okay. It's not like a big blocker. And can we focus on the strengths? Yeah. [00:41:20] Speaker C: You know, the other thing I'd say, Jill, and I say this to my children as well as a lot of people that I work with. Feedback is a gift. Don't get me wrong, feedback is a gift, but it is up to you whether what you need to know yourself. Right. And when you get feedback, think about is that what defines you. If it isn't, if in yourself, you know that what you've been given as feedback isn't actually what defines you, then be clear about that and forge on to do what you think needs to be done. Yeah, right. I think a lot of people kind of get caught up in, oh, I got this feedback. And then they allow that feedback to become who they think they need to become when it's not actually their area of strength. And, you know, as you get more and more senior in your career, no one I have worked with is 100% amazing. No, no one. So when they start to give you feedback about your 10% or your 5%, you kind of go, now you're really digging. [00:42:34] Speaker A: You're like, yeah, I'm okay with that. Thanks. [00:42:36] Speaker C: I'm okay with that. [00:42:37] Speaker A: Okay, I'll leave that one. [00:42:39] Speaker C: Am I going to let that define me? [00:42:43] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I agree. I agree. [00:42:48] Speaker B: Awesome. Well, Angela, thank you so much for joining us today and for sharing your insights. It's been absolutely fantastic having you and to everyone listening. Yeah, Please stay tuned in and we look forward to welcoming you on our next episode. [00:43:07] Speaker C: Also, thank you so much. I've thoroughly enjoyed the conversation that we've had. And as I said at the start, Aglay and Jill really appreciate having this opportunity to have this conversation and if this helps someone else in their career, amazing. [00:43:25] Speaker A: Fantastic. Thanks so much.