Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to another episode of her Heads in the Cloud.
Super excited with this one, to be honest. I've got Lisa Cutmore here from Airtasker. I'll let her do her own introduction.
[00:00:13] Speaker B: Hey, it's Agla from Precision Sourcing. And welcome to her Heads in the Cloud, the podcast where we dive into everything happening in the world of DevOps cloud and site reliability engineering. With over six years in the industry, I've built a successful DevOps practice from scratch and helping companies connect with the top tier talent they need to build diverse high performing teams. Each episode I'll be bringing you insights from some of the brightest minds in tech, engineers, leaders and industry experts. Whether you're here to learn practical tips or hear inspiring stories, you're in the right place. Let's get into it.
[00:00:49] Speaker C: Thank you.
Hi, my name's Lisa Cutmore. I'm Editaster.
Yeah, I've been in the industry for a while. I have enjoyed the journey. There's transitions.
Transition is both in my role as well as how the industry has moved along and I'm really excited to talk through this today.
[00:01:07] Speaker A: Absolutely. Thank you, Lisa.
We'll dive straight into the first question, but coming from quite an extensive dev background, what made you go into the leadership side of things rather than continue with the sole IT side of things?
[00:01:26] Speaker C: Yeah, it was a bit of an evolution. So I was a developer for 15 years, I loved it. So I call myself a problem solver, you know, and I really enjoyed, you know, getting the work assigned and then working on that particular story and working out the fastest and also the using logic to deliver it. What I did, what I found towards the end of my tenure as the actual hands on developer is I was missing being in a room with the folks who were deciding on what the strategy of the products was and deciding strategy of a team. So you'd have the product managers, tpms and the engineering managers kind of go into a room discussing the strategy and, and I really felt like I could add some voice to that, like as, yeah, I want to be part of those conversations.
So I made a transition into the technical product side, technical management, technical product management side for a while there and just being that person, the conduit between the product and engineering and using, you know, my understanding and in depth knowledge of programming to then help guide.
And then what I was, I found was I was partnering with some engineering managers and when they're on leave I'd often fill in for them and I was really enjoying that side. And so then I kind of branched out and Tried my hand at engineering management and that was eight, ten years ago now, and I've just been loving it ever since.
Absolutely, yeah.
[00:02:59] Speaker A: And some pretty impressive companies you've worked for as well during your time.
[00:03:03] Speaker C: I have, I have. I've been really lucky and really enjoyed it. Liked all different challenges and problems to solve. Less on the coding side, but now more on that people side and strategy and, you know, delivering the right solutions, which has been pretty cool.
[00:03:19] Speaker A: Yeah, no, absolutely. And with that, I imagine that, you know, there definitely would be some challenges that have come your way.
So what challenges would you say you faced as a woman in engineering and I guess more recently a woman in leadership?
[00:03:36] Speaker C: Really good question.
And I was taking some notes out of this beforehand and some of them are quirky. Like there are things.
There are things that I bet some of the men haven't experienced. Like I've been patted on the bum leaving an interview, you know, didn't accept that job, thank goodness. I don't know where that would have come. But, you know, the other thing is, you know, I've been in interviews where I'm conducting interviews on candidates and one of them was just for 10, 10 minutes of it was just exclaiming how he couldn't believe I was a female in it and couldn't believe I was in that role.
And even afterwards followed up and said, I still can't believe you're an engineering. You know, you're in engineering and you know.
Yeah. And you know, or things like being. I'll ask a question. And then I had this one manager who would not answer the question to me, but literally answer it to my male colleague sitting next to me.
And those are as much as they look. They're paper cuts and it might sound like little things. They're all things that make you realize you're not the same as everybody else. And you know, you're. It can, you know, I know imposter syndrome is felt by a lot of people, but in particular, if you are in the minority and you're there being questioned as to, you know, why you're there and why you should fit in, it makes you start to doubt yourself.
So confidence is a big one.
And the other thing is just having to feel like you're having to prove yourself all the time. I feel like my whole career I have to keep reminding myself I am enough, even though I'm slightly different. I might not be your typical engineer or engineering manager, but it's just that reminder and to yourself that you're okay and trying to prove that to others?
[00:05:19] Speaker A: Yeah, no, absolutely. Do you feel like it gets something that gets easier over the years or it still comes up from time to time?
[00:05:27] Speaker C: Oh, yeah.
I, as a.
I can coach and help other women, and I've done that so many times. And, you know, obviously it's not just women that suffer from confidence and imposter syndrome, but I'm great at helping others, but I'm still, still working on myself. And, you know, things like I've got little reminders throughout the day of, you know, I've got a calendar that talks about how awesome I am and, you know, those little things that you, you know, or my mantra that I mentioned before, which is I am enough and just reminding myself of these things. And every now and then, you just have to keep reminding yourself that you are enough and you're there for a reason. And I bring, I might not bring exactly the same skills or ways of working as other people, but, you know, I compliment other people, and that's what diversity is all about.
[00:06:14] Speaker A: 100.
I love that, Lisa.
And I guess, moving on to the, to the next question.
How do you navigate conflicts and handle difficult conversations as a woman in leadership, which I'm sure you see quite a lot of as well?
[00:06:31] Speaker C: It's funny you say that angle, because that is one area where I probably still have some challenges.
[00:06:39] Speaker A: So.
[00:06:39] Speaker C: And whether it's gendered or whether it's me, Lisa, I am someone who, I'm a highly emotional person. I'm highly. I'm an empath.
And I also have the combination where I speak what's on my mind and I'll tell people what I think, you know, so if I see ways that I could. That things could be improved, I'll voice that.
So that combination can be difficult for anyone, but in particular for females, I think, because it's hard to sometimes give feedback without either sounding not strong enough or too bossy or bitchy or, you know, whatever the stereotypes are of the females who are quite loud and vocal.
And so, you know, I have seen times in my career where I have said something and, you know, the stronger voice in the room will say the exact same thing, but it's amazing how they'll get the recognition.
I'm sure we've all been there, you know, but I think it's that balance between trying to say something in a way that has the influence and the impact without it being taken the wrong way.
So I've worked really hard on that, Continue to work really hard on that. You know, I've read so many books on the topic, you know, and.
[00:07:48] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:07:50] Speaker C: Yeah. And I think it's just something I have to keep reminding myself. It's.
Overall, I think I'm better now. You know, it's. Yeah. Crucial Conversations is the one book that I try and live by really strongly.
It's just when I'm tired or there's a lot happening or I haven't had food yet that sometimes can regress. So I've just got to be extra cautious of that. And because otherwise I can rub people up the Runway or burn bridges, and.
[00:08:16] Speaker A: That'S where I've got to be careful 100%. We might have to take this offline, but I would love to hear what your favorite book is that has helped you along your journey, if it doesn't spring to mind immediately.
[00:08:29] Speaker C: Crucial Conversations, definitely. That's the one. Yeah. It's the one where you talk to another person, you'll say their point of view and you'll extend their point of view. So instead of doing the. But you're extending it. So. And that's what is the wealth of.
You know, that's what's the magic of diversity in a team is you can't just have one person's idea or another person's idea. It's that collection and manifestation of all of the different ideas that is what makes highly performing teams so amazing, you know, is getting all of those ideas. So it's never about one person's idea over the other one.
[00:09:05] Speaker A: Yeah, no, that makes sense.
Thank you, Lisa. And let's. Let's talk. Let's dive a little bit deeper onto the topic of empathy and explore how emotional intelligence can play a crucial role in leading engineering teams effectively. Because it's also not a skill that everyone. Everyone has. And even if you do have it, it's a hard one to master as well.
[00:09:28] Speaker C: Oh, yeah.
It's a blessing and a curse.
[00:09:32] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:09:33] Speaker C: Oh, my gosh. So the curses, you know, and I was mentioned before, I'm highly emotional, and the curses and the empath is I'll feel people's emotions sometimes more than they will. You know, so many. Many people in my career that I've worked with or worked for or managed have seen my tears come out. You know, they'll be expressing something or I'll be expressing something, and that will come through. So I have now embraced it as part of my personality.
So I have warned people that, you know, you'll see me cry, but where you'll see me cry, you'll see a hundred times that. And smiles or laughter or, you know, Enjoyment is I wear my heart on my sleeve. And strong heart, you know, strong emotions, and that's just who I am. But I think that that is, you know, the flip side of that as a superpower is, you know, the intuition. You know, you can kind of pick up signals a little bit easier. And I had a manager years ago who actually said to me, he doesn't know how I do it, but I pick up on things before everybody else does, you know, And I think that's where that you can use those signals as guides.
You know, you can get to understand people a little bit better in terms of what makes them tick.
You can help guide them on their own journey of finding what their passions are because, you know, you're feeling it alongside them and you can see their eyes light up when they get excited about something.
[00:10:56] Speaker A: Yes, of course.
[00:10:58] Speaker C: Yeah. And you can, you can hear it from, you can feel it from the customer's perspective as well. So in terms of delivering products and putting yourself in the customer's shoes, it can really help out there in helping to bring the right solutions to our customers to, to bring what they need in place and, yeah, just helping shape that team. So I guess TLDR is that it's made me a people and product focus manager, and that's probably where I add and focus. My strengths is to try and help bring the team to be highly performing and delivering the right products and working together and effectively and, you know, high performing teams is what we're all trying to achieve as managers, right?
Yeah, hopefully it helps.
[00:11:40] Speaker A: Definitely. And it sounds like you've. You've gotten there.
[00:11:44] Speaker C: Hopefully.
[00:11:46] Speaker A: And that brings us on to our final question, Lisa. But there are, you know, plenty of women out there that probably feel a little bit lost when it comes to this.
So what advice would you give to young women in particular that are looking to pursue a career across technology and. Or in leadership? Obviously, it can seem quite daunting. Is it the right career move? I'd be a minority imposter syndrome kicking in. How would you. What, how would you overcome?
[00:12:19] Speaker C: Yeah, I wish I could have given myself this advice, you know, years ago, because I think that this is where, you know, you're starting out your career, you're trying to find your feet and your path in life.
I think the world has changed a lot since I graduated. So I think in that way I feel like we're really understanding the power of diversity in teams more now, which is good. So that's an advantage.
But I think with that comes embracing your diversity and embracing where you think you can add value.
So looking for where you've got your strengths and where that, you know, in my case, when we're the least rows of where I, I can add my value to the team, you know, honing those skills and really not saying they don't compare to these other people because they're not the same, but instead saying, well, they compliment them and you know, we can work together on this, like partner up with this other strength and stereo in yours and just looking to drive that.
The stereotype, just. Yeah, part of that is not challenging that stereotype and not trying to conform to it.
I think AI helps a lot. I think that AI is, if you, it doesn't, it doesn't do your job for you, it's all about helping make you more efficient and work better.
And that could be part of learning a new language or it could be part of, okay, you've still got to have the problem solving. You still got to know when. If you're using AI as a software engineer to deliver your work, you still got to use the context and the knowledge and the problem solving to be able to get it from what it recommends right now to be something that's accurate and delivering the value add so you can use it to get, learn a new language, for instance, you can use it to spike an idea, like spike some code and functionality and test it.
And then you can focus on what you're delivering in terms of adding the value.
You know, potentially tapping into that customer empathy that we, I talked about previously, or tapping into, you know, looking at the broader picture rather than solving that one little story. But, you know, actually looking at that broader picture and stitching some dots together from different concepts, you know, and using that breadth of experience to deliver, you know, some functionality and some tools or some work that really is helpful. But I guess one final thing is finding a company that really empowers you to be your true self. Like, it's so valuable. Like, if you have a manager you can resonate with and, you know that they, you know, there's that mutual respect, I think that that's so valuable. And I think that the times when I've looked back in my career where I've had those misalignments is probably where I've, you know, if I had my time again, I'd probably recognize that. And so when I go for a company, I actually interview my manager and the company just as much as they're interviewing me because it's, you know, you've got to make sure it's the right thing for you to be. This environment where you can be your.
[00:15:27] Speaker A: Best self 100% so crucial. Difficult to do as well to really, truly understand a person from an interview. But I guess if you go in prepared with your questions, do as much digging as you need to and like you say, it's very much a two way process in the world that we live in.
[00:15:46] Speaker C: 100%. Yeah. And I'm guessing you're helping align this as well in your role, which is awesome.
[00:15:53] Speaker A: Yes, absolutely.
Absolutely. And it's what I would always suggest.
Yeah. When people are looking for new opportunities. I'd only work for companies that I have a good gut feeling about that I know in and out what the culture is like.
[00:16:09] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:16:10] Speaker A: Otherwise it would be a no no.
But thank you so much Lisa for joining me and for sharing your insights. They really are valuable and I really appreciate you taking the time to come and join us on Her Heads in the Cloud.
So guys, watch this space for future podcasts and I hope you've enjoyed this episode.
[00:16:32] Speaker C: Thank you so much.
